Hi Frames of Space listeners!
We’re back with a new episode—one where we get past the headlines and into the messy, fascinating, and very human side of why we have kids, what society owes to parents, and why any of it matters in the first place.
This week, I sat down with journalist
, whose writing on parenting, public policy, and what we owe to one another has made waves everywhere from The Atlantic to her own increasingly popular Substack.Not Your Average Take on Parenting
Stephanie’s obsession with parenthood goes way back—even before she had kids herself. She admits she just can’t stop being drawn to the subject, and the “what we owe to each other” question that underpins so much of her work.
She shared that her interests aren’t just instinctual; they’re shaped by a mix of her own upbringing in a traditional Catholic family and the academic rabbit holes she’s pursued since. Stephanie’s take? We can’t talk honestly about declining birth rates or parenting struggles unless we zoom in from the bird’s-eye stats to the “dog’s-eye view” of personal experience.
What Gets Lost in the Research?
Stephanie talked about how she reviews mountains of fascinating but overlooked research—studies shining little spotlights on odd corners of family life that rarely break through to policymakers or news stories. She explains that while falling fertility rates make big headlines, deeper questions (like how people’s actual desires and intentions around kids change over time) are much less understood and much more complicated.
Parenthood: Purpose vs. Pleasure
One of the episode’s major threads explored purpose. Stephanie pushes back against the idea that we should have kids just for the “pleasure” or the cute moments, saying that for her—and for most people over the long haul—parenting has to be about doing necessary, meaningful work for something bigger than yourself.
But, as I pointed out, this attitude can make people wary. For many, especially in progressive or feminist circles, urging women to have children for society’s sake has echoes of more regressive times. Stephanie’s answer? Two truths can co-exist: society needs parents, but no one should be coerced into it. She’s passionately pronatal but equally passionate about women’s rights and freedom to choose.
Economic Realities and Cultural Narratives
Drawing on her background in economics and public policy, Stephanie makes it clear: you can’t separate parenthood from economic incentives and pressure. Kids once helped support the household; now, parents shoulder most of the costs, but the wider society benefits. There are no easy fixes—higher child subsidies and better childcare help, but cultural and policy changes together are necessary.
The Lived Experience
Stephanie didn’t shy away from sharing her own ups and downs—from postpartum struggles to the relief and gratitude she eventually felt. She describes the early years of parenting as a marathon: filled with difficult miles, but with immense satisfaction in hindsight. She also recognized how women’s expectations and priorities shift, and how important it is for society to value the work of parenting, even if not everyone chooses that path.
If You Take One Thing Away…
Stephanie’s takeaway? We need a culture where parenthood is recognized as essential, supported both economically and socially—not just pressuring people to have babies, but ensuring those who do aren’t left carrying the weight alone.
Until next time,
Andrew
Show Notes
"Welcome to Family Stuff" by Stephanie Murray, Family Stuff
"Stephanie Murray: Promoting Parenthood in a Free Society" from The Human Progress Podcast
"A Pro-Natalism for Normies" by Patrick Brown, The Dispatch
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