Hi friends,
We're back in your inbox with an episode that dives deep into some of the most pressing and complicated issues of our current moment: technology, trust, and the social divides shaping the world we live in.
This month’s conversation features Jessica Grose, New York Times opinion writer and thoughtful chronicler of American life. What I admire about Jessica's writing is that she doesn’t just cover politics as a horse race or culture as a meme war; she zooms into the kitchen tables, classrooms, and waiting rooms where policy choices land on real people. Her beat is parenthood and education, faith and loneliness, COVID aftershocks and TikTok doom-scrolls — basically, all the places where our ideals crash into our everyday lives.
Whether you’re a long-time listener or brand new to our community, this episode is packed with stories, insights, and a dose of much-needed optimism.
Highlights include:
Life After Lockdown
Jessica brings emotional depth to the ongoing story of how we’re all recovering from the social and educational fractures of the pandemic. She warns that we’re only just beginning to understand the lasting impacts on kids, especially those from vulnerable backgrounds.How Technology Is Shaping a Generation
From shorter attention spans to unexpected bursts of creativity (shout out to all the kids learning new crafts via YouTube), Jessica and I dig into how Gen Alpha is being shaped by screens, algorithms, and AI. The good, the bad, and the deeply complicated.Declining Trust in Institutions
Why are so many parents and individuals turning away from traditional health advice in favor of fringe wellness or misinformation? Jessica shares her empathy for those who’ve felt dismissed by the medical system, but also her deep frustration with the increasingly harmful consequences.Is a Monoculture Possible in 2025?
We talk about why it feels harder than ever to connect with people across cultural and ideological lines, and how the erosion of shared reference points (remember when everyone watched the same TV show?) has made our public square more fragmented—and sometimes, more vulnerable to manipulation.Resilience and Finding Joy
Amid the anxiety and uncertainty, Jessica offers some practical advice for finding stability: invest in your closest relationships, take news breaks, and focus on the small daily joys no one can take away.
A Few Quotes We Loved:
“Technology companies seem to have no desire to regulate themselves…Society hasn’t made rules for them that both respect free speech and give guardrails. It’s such a wild west, and we’re not going to know the deleterious effects for years.”
“One day at a time. There are so many things beyond our control. Focus on the basic stuff of life—the things they can’t take away from you.”
Try This:
News Overload? Time-box your news consumption to a specific hour each day, and give yourself permission to let it go afterward.
Rebuild community. Reach out to someone you haven’t talked to in a while, or share this episode with a friend who loves a good deep dive into how culture is evolving.
If you enjoyed this week’s exploration of how we live now, don’t forget to follow Frames of Space on your favorite podcast app, and keep an eye out for our next episode.
As always, if the conversation resonated, hit reply and tell us how you’re making sense of the fractures—and the small moments of connection—in your own corner of the world.
See you next time,
Andrew
Show Notes
"Parents Don’t Know It but K-12 Students Are Falling Into ‘the Honesty Gap’" by Jessica Grose, The New York Times
"Measles, MAHA Moms and Robert F. Kennedy Jr." from The Opinions
Full Transcript
Andrew Xu [00:00:00]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Andrew, and welcome back to Frames of Space. Today, I want to show you all a conversation that I've had that feels both timely and timeless in a way. It is a conversation about trust and community and how we navigate all of the different fractures of our society, especially in a moment when those fractures seem to be widening quite a bit. My guest today is someone that I've had the pleasure of speaking with before on this podcast, and I'm really glad to have her back. Her name is Jessica Grose, and she is an opinion writer for The New York Times. She's someone who I think has a very unique ability to capture the essence of the way that we live now. You see, Jessica doesn't just cover politics as a horse race or culture as a meme war.
Andrew Xu [00:01:13]:
She zooms into the kitchen tables, classrooms, and waiting rooms where policy lands on real people and the lives that they live. Her beat is, well, it's a lot of things. She talks about, say, parenthood and education or faith and loneliness, COVID aftershocks, TikTok doom scrolls. Basically, she talks about all of the different places where our ideals crash into people's everyday schedules. But what I think really sets her apart is the emotional depth that she brings to these topics. Jessica doesn't just analyze the issues. She invites us to see the humanity in each other, even during our worst moments. And let's be honest.
Andrew Xu [00:02:00]:
We've been living through some of our worst moments over the past several years. Political turmoil and even just the lingering effects of the pandemic have left many of us feeling disconnected, distrustful, and unsure of how to move forward. Jessica's work reminds us of the importance of community, of learning to live with each other even as we process the major events that are shaping our world. Today, we're going to dig into some of themes that Jessica has been exploring in her writing. We'll talk about the state of education post pandemic or the effect of secularization. But I think one of the most poignant and interesting parts of our discussion is when we delve into the decline of trust in mainstream health institutions and specifically the role that that played in the rise of movements like RFK Jr's make America healthy again movement. But this conversation isn't just about the problems that we're facing. It is also about the progress that we've made.
Andrew Xu [00:03:06]:
When you zoom out, whether it's fifty years ago or even a hundred years ago, it is clear how much things have changed and how much they have improved. And while there's still a lot of work to do, that progress can truly be a source of motivation for us. It can remind us to give ourselves grace and to keep striving for a better world and a world where we can find ways to live with ourselves and each other even when things feel uncomfortably divided. So if you're new to Frames of Space, think of this intro as a bit of a map. And the next hour is the expedition. Grab a coffee, and let's just step inside and explore the way that we live now with Jessica Grose. Hope you enjoy.
Jessica Grose [00:04:13]:
Hi. How are you?
Andrew Xu [00:04:14]:
I'm I'm I'm alright. How how are you?
Jessica Grose [00:04:18]:
I'm good. I have a little bit of a head cold. So if I sound, congested, apologies for that.
Andrew Xu [00:04:24]:
No. No worries. It's it's fine. Sometimes I sound congested, and it's it it usually it usually turns out alright.
Jessica Grose [00:04:32]:
Oh, good.
Andrew Xu [00:04:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been alright other than just being sad about current events. But what
Jessica Grose [00:04:39]:
It's not great. I joke that, every day, I'm, regret the choices that led me to choose a career in news. Like Yeah. I just don't wanna know. But, you know, it's what it is.
Andrew Xu [00:04:55]:
Yeah. But maybe I think the times in which it is the most hard to talk about are the times when it is also the most important to
Jessica Grose [00:05:05]:
Well, I was actually talking to my editor yesterday, and I do think you know, my hopeful view of this is that we are going to find connection and agreement with people that we didn't think that we would find connection and agreement with because there are so many decisions that are being made that I think are, beyond the on the pay beyond the pale, for so many people in different ways, that I think, you know, maybe we'll find new modes of agreement and connection and ways to move forward. I don't know. Maybe that's too optimistic, but that's what I tell myself to feel better.
Andrew Xu [00:05:47]:
Yeah. One well, one thing I'm trying to do is I'm trying to, time box my news consumption. It would be, one hour of the day, I'm only gonna read the news, during this specific hour that I marked on my calendar. And that and then after that, when I'm finally done, reward myself by, playing video games or, watching a really comforting TV show or something.
Jessica Grose [00:06:07]:
Yeah. I mean, I took all the alerts off my phone. I don't have news alerts on my phone. And, I put my phone downstairs now. I try to do it by 08:30. Usually, it's by, nine, and just watch something comforting, and I think that's also really helpful. Like, if something important happens, we're all gonna find out about it. We don't need to know in real time most of the time.
Jessica Grose [00:06:28]:
You know? Yeah.
Andrew Xu [00:06:29]:
Yeah. Well, that is that is something that you mentioned at the end of one of your articles. Maybe maybe you could talk to our audience about how now you leave your phone, like out just completely away from your bedroom before you go to sleep.
Jessica Grose [00:06:42]:
Yeah. I would love to. Are we are are we I mean, I know this all on the record, but are we are we officially started?
Andrew Xu [00:06:48]:
Yeah. I guess I guess we're officially maybe maybe I'll just, continue the trend of whenever I get you on the podcast. Like, all the all the preamble before the official starts makes it into the final product anyway just for kids.
Jessica Grose [00:07:00]:
Yeah. No. I mean, it has really. I mean, I've interviewed sleep experts. I'm very interested in sleep. That sounds insane, but I am. I mean, I think it's the most important thing for mental health for everybody, especially kids. And they're always saying, you know, get your phone out of your bedroom.
Jessica Grose [00:07:19]:
And I was I know I should, but I cannot resist having it in here. And it really has made my falling asleep so much easier to not have it in the bedroom. So all the experts are right. They know what they're talking about.
Andrew Xu [00:07:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. That I can't believe that that's like a like a very controversial thing to say. I
Jessica Grose [00:07:40]:
don't think it's controversial. Very hard to make happen. Like, I never didn't believe them. I was just but I like my scrolling at night. Like, you know? So it was never it was never that I didn't believe them. It was more I just simply didn't want to. So
Andrew Xu [00:07:56]:
Yeah. One thing another, I guess, slightly cringe thing that I do is that, there's this one app that I use to basically turn everyday tasks into, a into, an RPG where, if I if I log out of social media platforms, at night before I go to bed, then I can, press a button, and then it gives me, experience points and gold coins that
Jessica Grose [00:08:18]:
I'm I'm very goal oriented in the same way. That's why I love Orangetheory, which is a high intensity interval training workout, but it's very gamified. There's points splat points, they're called, when your heart rate goes above a certain level. And I am so motivated by those splats. It's honestly pathetic. But I do love
Andrew Xu [00:08:40]:
Like, we are human beings. Like, there is still that part of that caveman brain that we need to, nurture.
Jessica Grose [00:08:46]:
Totally.
Andrew Xu [00:08:47]:
Like, maybe the all the you know how there are, probably tons and tons of people where ever since Trump's second inauguration, they just, tuned out of the news? Yeah. I think that we need to find ways to reward, the caveman part of our brain in order to motivate us to, stay attuned to what's going on right now. Maybe the, the main, the main obstacle we face right now with trying to, track what's going on is not necessarily intellectual. It's just, more, being willing to, stay enough in touch with our emotions to, give enough encouragement to the part of our caveman brain that just wants to tune things out.
Jessica Grose [00:09:24]:
I mean, I just also think it's so hard to exist in this current information environment. I find this as a reporter. I'm just getting so much news every day about so many different topics. And because, the current administration changes its mind so much, I don't wanna spend a whole lot of time reporting on something that's gonna change, tomorrow. Right? And so it's really hard to figure out where to put my energies and what I find to be the most important thing in this moment to write about and talk about and give people accurate information when it's, you know, oh, by an hour after I've written it, it might be completely different.
Andrew Xu [00:10:07]:
I feel like this is like a u this is such a unique time that maybe, maybe it would even be worthwhile for there to be, writers where their entire beat is just giving people advice on how to cover the second Trump administration.
Jessica Grose [00:10:20]:
I think I wouldn't be the person to do it, but I would read that newsletter for sure. I mean, I think for for my beat, there are certain topics that I come back to sort of over and over again. And I think the core that connects them all is a desire for humanity. I know that sounds sort of broad, but I'm
Andrew Xu [00:10:43]:
I think we should try to be as cheesy as possible just to, separate the
Jessica Grose [00:10:47]:
This will be a very earnest discussion. Now I just think about it a lot because one of, one of the few things that really keeps me up at night is AI, and it's just the unknowns. And and we don't know if it's gonna be a flop or it's gonna change all our lives. Are my children not is college gonna be meaningless for them? What will their jobs look like? Like, I just you know, will they be totally disconnected from each other? And, you know, will human relationships feel obsolete? I mean, these are the things that I worry a whole lot about because at the end of the day, I just think human connection experience being out in the world touching grass is is it? Like, that's why we're here. So that I think informs a lot of what I'm I think and write about these days, and it it just goes into many different ways. Like, you know, we've talked about my reporting on religion, and I think the core desire for that for a sense of community, for a sense of understanding, you know, again, what makes us human.
Andrew Xu [00:11:53]:
I was gonna make a broader philosophical and ideological point, but I think it's better to, stick to the the nitty gritty at least for the next few minutes. So just, yeah, just to give it, an an explainer to audience members who don't know what the hell we're talking about. What what would what would you say are the main topics that you tend to focus on writing these days?
Jessica Grose [00:12:16]:
I would say education, religion, women's rights broadly, pop culture, and how politics intersects with family.
Andrew Xu [00:12:33]:
Yeah. So I guess, various aspects of the culture and, how they're being affected by current events. What do you say?
Jessica Grose [00:12:41]:
The the cheesy way to put it is the way we live now, but that so brought us to be meaningless. So, no. Like, I've used that freezing before, but I don't love it just because it's what does that even mean? But, you know, I
Andrew Xu [00:12:57]:
talk you've said that to people and they've just responded with, blank
Jessica Grose [00:13:00]:
stares. Yes. And I and, you know, we started talking about AI technology and how technology affects children, how it affects our brains, how it affects our the way we socialize with each other, how it affects our emotions. That's a huge thread in what I write about.
Andrew Xu [00:13:16]:
Yeah. So you talk about technology and how it affects our brains or how it affects children's brains. That's actually a pretty neat segue to, one of the questions I have. How does technology affect children's brains? Like, how do you think Gen Alpha will be different from millennials or even Gen z just because of how plugged in they are?
Jessica Grose [00:13:33]:
So I think, like with everything, there's plus and minus, and there's unintended consequences. I think the biggest thing that happened to them, which will affect them in ways we will not understand for ten to twenty years, obviously, was, you know, the COVID lockdown, shutdowns, whatever you wanna call them in twenty twenty to twenty twenty one. We shut an entire generation inside for, you know, twelve to eighteen months, and we're seeing a lot of aftereffects for a lot of people. And the sort of way that I think about it is for most people, not just children, they can use tools like social media and AI, and it will not substantially harm them. But there is a group of people who are already vulnerable in a variety of ways, whether they're emotionally vulnerable, whether they are, you know, financially vulnerable, who will be affected extremely negatively. And as a society, I think we don't really know how to deal with that. And because technology companies seem to have no desire to regulate themselves, and I don't think at least The United States has done a very good job of making rules for them that both respect free speech, but also give them some guardrails. I think we're it's such a wild west, and we're not gonna know the sort of deleterious effects to that.
Jessica Grose [00:15:09]:
You know? What is it? Ten percent, fifteen percent of people who are really so negatively affected by these technologies. So sort of broad outcomes. The bad ones would be, I think, they don't have attention spans, that are as good as the previous generation.
Andrew Xu [00:15:28]:
Or like lower literacy skills like that.
Jessica Grose [00:15:30]:
Lower literacy skills, I would say, they may not be able to socialize in real life. Some of them is a way
Andrew Xu [00:15:40]:
kind of like the fact that you said that it just like it's such an offhanded way. Like, they may not be able to socialize in real life.
Jessica Grose [00:15:46]:
Yeah. It's not great. Positives. I think they are incredibly savvy. I think that they are very sharp about communication and the ways that things are sold to them, and they're sort of suspicious, of a lot in a way that I don't think is bad. I think it is an appropriate reaction to being native to these sorts of technologies where there's not a lot of vetting. I think there's tremendous creativity that can be enabled by using the tools, that are readily accessible online. I think about my kids all the time.
Jessica Grose [00:16:27]:
So my older daughter is very crafty, and she basically taught herself how to crochet, with YouTube videos. And she's really quite good at it now. And I just don't think that she would have been able to develop this real life skill as quickly or seamlessly without having all this knowledge at her fingertips. So I think that's incredible. And I was, you know, wanna be clear that I think sometimes I can I can be a little too anti tech in my writing, but I'm not a Luddite? And I do see there are so many values to a lot of this technology. I just think society and the companies that make these technologies have not adequately grappled with the downsides. And I also think that they have been very careless with user data in a way that just bums me out.
Andrew Xu [00:17:27]:
Yeah. So you're not you're not a Luddite. Like, so what do you say? What do you do you subscribe to, the Jonathan Haidt view that we should just, ban smartphones in schools?
Jessica Grose [00:17:35]:
Yes. I've been totally Haidt pilled on that. You can't pay attention. Like, it that's just common sense. If you have your phone out in a meeting as an adult, you are not paying attention to what is happening in that meeting. How can we expect children whose brains are not as fully formed to be paying attention to what is going on in their classroom if they have devices out? Like that, I just think that that it's real I've heard arguments in favor of the devices, and I just don't think that they really hold any water. And I think they should be gone for the whole day because, you know, I hear from teachers all the time that I interview. If they have them with them, they're not talking to each other at lunchtime.
Jessica Grose [00:18:14]:
They're not, you know, really making strong connections and doing other things. They just take the phones out at lunchtime. So I think, actually, I just read an article about a school in Washington state where they took the phones away, but they actually, additionally, created a lot of programming that was like this was in an, elementary and middle school. It's like hands on, crafting, woodworking, stuff that, is engaging the kids in their physical space. So So I don't think it's just, take the phones away. It's, also give kids opportunities to learn in person skills, that they might not otherwise have and and have a little fun. You know?
Andrew Xu [00:18:57]:
Yeah. I feel this makes me, genuinely really relieved that I felt like I'm I, I grew up as, the very last generation to not have to deal with all of this, like online nonsense.
Jessica Grose [00:19:10]:
I feel the same way. I mean, I'm, I call myself an ancient millennial. I was born in 1982, and so, you know, I had a very analog childhood. And so I feel happy to have had that experience.
Andrew Xu [00:19:29]:
Do you think social media was a mistake?
Jessica Grose [00:19:34]:
I think unregulated social media was a mistake. I think it was inevitable that once we had this technology that something like social media would have happened. I think it was allowed to grow unfettered in a way because people didn't really take it seriously and what its power was very seriously. I mean, we're talking about the harms to children, but, obviously, there's tremendous geopolitical damage that can happen with, you know, false information being spread at scale. So, you know, I don't think I think social media had to happen, but I think that it it never had to grow in precisely the way that it did grow. And I think when you're looking back, sometimes people just have the sense oh, it was inevitable that it all turned out this way. And it was no. There were numerous decisions made at different points by companies, by governments, over the past twenty years that could have been different.
Andrew Xu [00:20:40]:
Yeah. I think sometimes we tell ourselves that things are inevitable because, I think it's I think sometimes we tell it for ourselves because, the truth is that history is entirely contingent. And, there are a lot of times when the world could have been made significantly better or significantly worse. But, in it's hard for our brains to process all of that, and sometimes it's hard hard for our brains to, process how different our own identity should become in order to accommodate for how different reality has become. So it's a lot easier to just say that, whatever the current world is it was always inevitable to be this way.
Jessica Grose [00:21:18]:
Right.
Andrew Xu [00:21:19]:
Yeah.
Jessica Grose [00:21:19]:
And it's not.
Andrew Xu [00:21:21]:
Yeah.
Jessica Grose [00:21:22]:
Only the only things that are inevitable are death and taxes. Right?
Andrew Xu [00:21:26]:
Yeah. To what extent do you think students have successfully recovered from post pandemic learning loss? Or do you think it's still the sort of thing where, every single year, we realize that it was worse than we imagined?
Jessica Grose [00:21:40]:
I mean, again, it's one of these things where you're really divided into the haves and the have nots. When you look at kids who are, you know, from families where there's two college educated parents, and they were at the upper end of, you know, standardized testing, those kids are fine. Those kids are doing kind of how they were before the pandemic. We don't see sort of a lot of damage to that population. The middle is kind of all over the place. Some kids did okay. Some kids are really struggling. And here, I'm just talking about academics.
Jessica Grose [00:22:15]:
I'm not even talking about the social and behavioral stuff, which is sort of another can of worms. The kids who are at the bottom of the distribution are really not doing well. And and it's sort of complicated as to why. Some of it is that chronic absenteeism is still a huge problem. So you're not I mean, again, very common sense to call straightforward. If you're not showing up to school 10% of the time, you're gonna fall behind. It would take a very dedicated family to help a kid not fall behind if they were missing 10% of their classes. Right? So this sort of bottom 25%, which actually does cut across socioeconomic class, they were really, really harmed by the pandemic.
Jessica Grose [00:23:03]:
Their, you know, test scores are very are much lower than they used to be. You know, a lot of this is not something I came up with, but, again, it makes a lot of sense. A lot of the education experts that I talked to think, you know, in 2021, that school year, there's a lot of kids who probably should have been held back, who should have made, you know, repeated third grade, repeated fourth grade. These really incredibly important years when if you are not reading at a certain level and comp comprehending at a certain level, it is very, very hard to catch up because every year that you're not at a a reading level where you can really read to learn, it's just it's it's going to set you back further and further and further. Does that make sense?
Andrew Xu [00:23:56]:
Yeah. And maybe, like so, it's going every single every single year that you don't do the reading and every single year that you don't, progress forward by the extent that you're supposed to, there's a sort of a lag where when you're learning the stuff in the future year, it doesn't actually make as much sense to you because you didn't learn the foundation that would have had it make sense.
Jessica Grose [00:24:16]:
Exactly. Exactly. But, I mean, you know, I mean, this is the cliche is from kindergarten to third grade, you are learning to read. And then by third grade, you should be reading to learn, which is, you know, your reading is fluid enough and your literacy is fluid enough that you can start understanding deeper concepts. So if you are behind again, in this very pivotal sort of end of elementary school, and you're and no one really works with you to improve your reading and your and your cognition, then it just harms you in everything. Right? Because if you can't read well enough, how are you gonna do a complicated math problem? Even if you understand could understand the concepts because you, you know, have good numeracy skills, if you can't properly comprehend the word problem, you're not gonna be able to get it. So it sort of has this trickle across many different things, when literacy is not where it should be.
Andrew Xu [00:25:21]:
Yeah. So that's that does sound pretty disconcerting. But maybe just Not right. Yeah. Like, I'm I'm trying to look at a little see if there is some kind of bright spot in all this. I'm gonna try to zoom out. So obviously, students are performing more a lot more poorly compared to what they were doing, five years ago, ten years ago. But, the current decline in how students are doing, how does that compare to how students in America who are doing, thirty years or even fifty years ago? Is it still, a gen? Like, is it, my, my my cope internal explanation is that, the increased performance of students over time is kinda like the stock market where it has, highs and lows, but it's generally on an upward trend.
Andrew Xu [00:26:01]:
What do you say that way when it comes to students' performance? Like, are they still doing better than students did, thirty years ago or even fifty?
Jessica Grose [00:26:07]:
Yeah. I mean, you know, the when a lot of these test tracking started in the, you know, I would say seventies, eighties, nineties, they were really ramping it up, you know, kids did worse than they did now. And I think you're totally right that you're just not gonna have, a permanent, increase forever and ever and ever. I think you're right. That makes sense. But, you know, it's still disheartening, troubling.
Andrew Xu [00:26:34]:
Yeah. And maybe I think part of the way that I'm trying to process all the things that have been happening right now is just to, zoom out into the longer term because, like when things seem like they're on a downward trajectory, within the past few years, I just maybe the one thing that I can tell to, comfort my caveman brain is that, it's still imagine, a stock market that goes through a recession, but even after that recession is still significant prices are still significantly higher than they were, fifty years ago. That's yeah. That's my that's my hope about how, how things are going.
Jessica Grose [00:27:11]:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's why, I, you know, we're talking, I don't know when you're gonna run this the week that the stock market has just been completely all over the place. And I think because I was an adult, I was in my twenties in 02/2008, and that was, completely terrifying, because I think I already lived through that. I've been able to be a little bit more calm about this one. It's still not great. I'm not happy about it, but I'm not tearing my hair out in quite the same way. I mean, maybe that's just sort of, general, maturity. But Yeah.
Jessica Grose [00:27:57]:
That's what it is.
Andrew Xu [00:27:58]:
Yeah. There's do you think do you okay. This is a bit of a swerve. Do you think do you think people who engage in, religious communities are more easily able to deal with, significant changes in society?
Jessica Grose [00:28:15]:
I don't know. I think, like everything, it's partially nature, partially nurture. I think if you have connected relationships in your life and you have a sense of meaning and purpose, and that doesn't necessarily have to be through organized religion, you're obviously gonna be able to weather storms of any kind better. I think religion certainly provides people with a meaning and an understanding of the world that is outside the day to day gyrations of life in a way that I think is incredibly important. But it's sort of not the only way. And I think if you are otherwise not in a good place and you don't feel like you have a connected life, in a variety of ways, I don't I don't know that it's gonna be the be all end all.
Andrew Xu [00:29:13]:
Yeah. There's there's one thing that, I was, arguing with the pastor at my church at one point. And then he he said something that's, still, etched into my brain. Like, he he he made the argument that people who only know a little bit about the situation tend to be, at peace and, add comfort with themselves. People who know a little bit more about the situation tend to be, very worried and very anxious. Whereas people who know the most about a situation tend to be, the most at peace. And, I want I'd like to think that I'm in the third category, but I'm probably in the second category if not.
Jessica Grose [00:29:56]:
But, you know, we all have to live with ourselves at the end of the day. Right? And some days that's easier and some days that's harder. And I think I don't know. I mean, I've I've gotten I feel in my own life like I'm in such a good place in a lot of ways with you know, my kids are healthy. They're happy. My parents are still alive. They're in good health. And I and anytime I and, you know, I'm my husband and I are really happy, and we live in a neighborhood that we like in.
Jessica Grose [00:30:34]:
So anytime, you know, I start getting really upset about a lot of things that I can't control, which is a lot of things, I do try to come back to, these core principles, these fundamentals of my life, and what matters to me. And it does help.
Andrew Xu [00:30:51]:
Well, you did. I don't know how serious you were, but last last our last conversation, you did joke that you might, end up in prison in a few years.
Jessica Grose [00:31:00]:
Did I have what was I say?
Andrew Xu [00:31:02]:
I think you were complaining about Trump, and then, you said, oh, you can play this back to me in a few years when I'm, in in prison.
Jessica Grose [00:31:10]:
Yeah. You know, I don't I mean, I don't think it's gonna be like that, but, obviously, we've seen trampling over rights that we thought were, you know, pretty clear. So I don't know.
Andrew Xu [00:31:31]:
Yeah.
Jessica Grose [00:31:31]:
I really want to say. I mean, it's so it's so bleak and sad and wrong, and unfair to a lot of people who didn't break the law and didn't do anything wrong. And it you know, I think the sort of darkest part of it to me is, the pleasure that some people in the administration seem to take in cruelty. And I just find that an unsettling, bad for society.
Andrew Xu [00:32:04]:
Yeah. I don't like it. Yeah. I guess yeah. I guess I do think that, you know how you said we we have to live with ourselves at the end of the day. I think that if we need if we were to be able to live with ourselves at the end of the day while, doing so in a way that is cognizant of what is happening and not just, retreating into into, our own lives and, trying our best to, you know, that that whole image of, someone that has their fingers in their ears and they're just saying la la la la. Yes. Like yeah.
Andrew Xu [00:32:32]:
Like, I'm I don't want to be the type of person that lives my with myself by just, putting my fingers in my ear and just saying la la la every time every time I'm I have the potential of trying to figure out what's going on. Like, I think that I think the best version of ourselves is able to live with ourselves while staying cognizant of what's going on. And if we find that if we find it too troubling, we can always try to, soothe that part of our caveman brain with, positive reinforcement and stuff.
Jessica Grose [00:33:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's also, I think at some point, you know, the idea that one person can make a hue Any one person who themselves is not the president or a senator can make you know, it's all up to you and me to deal you know, comment on everything. Like, that's that just at some point devolves into narcissism because it's yeah, it is important to take a stand about things that you care about and and know about, but you can't comment on absolutely everything all the time. And at some point, it doesn't actually make a difference or matter. And it can actually be harmful if you're, you know, talk I really try my hardest to not publicly comment on things that I truly don't know anything about or don't know enough about to be confident in what I'm saying.
Andrew Xu [00:33:55]:
If you if you could take a stand on one issue, what issue would that be?
Jessica Grose [00:34:00]:
I think I would say universal health care, because I think the health of the most vulnerable people is obviously much worse in The United States than in other countries. There was just an a big new study, that came out that showed that the wealthiest Americans are in the same health as the poorest Europeans. And I just think universal health care. If if we did if if health care didn't bankrupt people, if going to medical debt, I think that is the number one thing that could help the most people in The United States. And it is evergreen, and it does, you know, whoever's in power, who's ever in charge, whatever the gyrations of the stock market, I just find it to be inhumane that we don't have it, and it's so straightforward to me and logical, and it's something you know? That's if if I had to choose one issue and all of the issues, I think that would be it.
Andrew Xu [00:35:09]:
Yeah. How how how is America doing in terms of health right now?
Jessica Grose [00:35:15]:
Not great. I am so upset about measles. I think about it all the time. I don't know what to do. The people who believe in the bad information about it are totally dug in, and there's no you know, I think I still can't believe that RFK Jr is the head of health and human services. He is doesn't you know, I don't know if you read any of his books. I mean, he his beliefs are out of pocket. It's just so upsetting to me, on such a profound level.
Jessica Grose [00:35:57]:
And I think that there's so much that we do need to do in terms of the environment and in terms of food safety. And he is definitely not the guy who's gonna do it. And so I just the thing I find most upsetting is all of the people who support him, who are he's you know, he alone can fix it. It's there's so many people who do not have his particular set of beliefs, who also don't trust big pharma, who also believes that, you know, we need to do a better job in fixing the environment, but who are not, you know, spreading incorrect information about measles. Right? Like, you don't need to have all of those things in his particular package. You could have someone else who was a little bit disruptive to the current status quo without also not really believing in the germ theory of disease. Like, it's very it it just I find that thread of support for him so frustrating because it's I agree with you. I agree that there's so many ways in which Americans are not, don't have a healthy environment, that we that are low hanging fruit that could be fixed.
Jessica Grose [00:37:07]:
And he is not the man who is gonna do that for us.
Andrew Xu [00:37:10]:
Yeah. Okay. So let's let's dive into this a little bit because you made you made a guest appearance on the opinions podcast where you said stuff that was very interesting in terms of why people gravitate to people like RFK. Like, do would you say that you have a lot of sympathy towards mothers who end up becoming anti vax?
Jessica Grose [00:37:29]:
Some of them. Yeah. I mean, a a very common narrative that I see is they have had a really horrible experience, it with the medical system in pregnancy, in birth, or when their child was very young. And they felt dismissed. They felt, that their health or their child's health was not take being taken seriously. And there is an alternative health movement that is is ready to welcome you with open arms and tell you and validate you and tell you, you know, we understand and then, you know, send you down this path of anti vaccine information. And so I have a ton of sympathy for that. But I also have a ton of frustration.
Jessica Grose [00:38:10]:
You know, I don't have a baby right now. My kids are are older. They're eight and 12. But if I had an infant, I wouldn't be and I lived in Texas, I would be so upset, and so worried for the first six months of their life about them contracting measles. And I just think that that it's ultimately quite antisocial to not understand how one's choices about vaccines, especially the vaccines that, you know, are tried and true, have been around for a long time, polio, MMR, that one's individual decision to not vaccinate their child has a knock on effect. And I'm even very sympathetic to people who don't wanna get the COVID vaccine for their children. It's new. I understand being scared of that.
Jessica Grose [00:39:00]:
I think, you know and it's not it's like the flu vaccine is not, you know, as effective as MMR. I mean, that is true. I still think that you should get it. My kids have the flu vaccine and the COVID vaccine, and and I got the flu in my twenties, when I hadn't gotten the vaccine because I didn't think it was a big deal, and I was dumb. And that's the sickest I've been in my adult life probably, except when I was pregnant and had hyperbiosis. I got the flu. I was in bed for a week. I had been previously training for a half marathon.
Jessica Grose [00:39:37]:
I couldn't run for, six weeks, eight weeks after that. It's not fun. It's not a good time. So, you know, getting the flu vaccine, even if it doesn't completely prevent you from getting the flu, it will make the disease more milder. But, again, it's I understand and have empathy for a lot of people who are distrustful, especially because, you know, I think COVID did so much damage and the public health communication during COVID was not great. But I am also just so alarmed and depressed by an entire online industry of people who wanna sell you supplements that don't do anything and wanna make money off this, distrust of mainstream medication.
Andrew Xu [00:40:24]:
Yeah. yYou talk a little bit about how you know a lot of, women or you've talked to a lot of them where they've had, a lot of dissatisfaction with, what you might call big pharma or, the, quote, unquote, medicine establishment or whatever. And then, they end up getting radicalized into these anti health rabbit holes. But, how much of those rabbit holes would you say are, telling them what they've always, wanted to hear or, instinct instinctively believe? Like, if the solution is just to, exercise more and make sure that you eat healthy and then try to avoid all of the medication that people give you, how much of that was, stuff that they instinctively thought was the right solution in the first place?
Jessica Grose [00:41:09]:
Well, here's the thing. This is what bothers me about the whole thing. Most doctors will tell you that already. Right? I was both my parents are doctors. They are so proud. My mother is 76. And until this past year when she had to start a statin, was so proud of the fact that she was not on any medications. Most doctors, good doctors, will try every noninvasive in every definition of that world word treatment before they go to, you know, the bigger guns.
Jessica Grose [00:41:42]:
Right? And, of course, there's bad doctors. There's bad teachers. There's bad every profession.
Andrew Xu [00:41:48]:
And there will always be.
Jessica Grose [00:41:49]:
And there will always be. But I sort of reject the idea that, the average doctor wasn't already telling their patients, yeah. You need to eat more vegetables and exercise and, you know, the cascade of medications, which is the thing that I have written about. A lot of people, especially older people, are quite overmedicated. And it's like the cat the cascade of medications is you take one medication. Right? And then that gives you a side effect to fix a problem. That medication gives you a side effect. And instead of figuring out, you know, a different medication to fix the original problem, you take a second medication to fix the side effects.
Jessica Grose [00:42:31]:
And then that gives you another side effect. Right? So, you know, that is a a documented phenomenon that does happen especially with people in the last, you know, two, three years of their life. Right? And I think it is worth asking and being skeptical and saying hey. Would it actually be better for an individual person to not be on any of this and just deal in other ways with the original problem? Right? Perfectly fine question to ask. Something that should be researched. Something that in your in your own life. I mean, I'm very, very,
Andrew Xu [00:43:05]:
Well, a lot of these people would say that they're doing their own research.
Jessica Grose [00:43:09]:
I know. I know. But it they don't have an MD. Like, that's the other thing.
Andrew Xu [00:43:16]:
Well, they would say that, like all the people who have MDs are, inherently corrupt.
Jessica Grose [00:43:21]:
the Yeah. I know. But that's not true. I mean, most doctors don't take money from Brig Pharma. Like, they don't. A lot of them don't. And I think that they should there should be, you know, they should be shouting that from the rooftop, but you say that and then they just don't believe you. You know? Like, again, it's as I said at the beginning of the discussion, we are in such challenging information landscape.
Jessica Grose [00:43:43]:
And, you know, I see this all the time, and I really do try to talk to people who disagree with me about my my work. And I try to have good faith discussions, and it's very hard. But oftentimes, they'll just say things that are just completely wrong, incontrovertibly incorrect, data to back up the fact that they are wrong, and and then it's real they stick to their guns anyway. And it's I don't know how you have a conversation after that. Like, you can't. We have a different you have alternative facts in the cliche phrase. Right? Like, I don't that's not how I how I see it. Right? Or how I believe that the data reflects this.
Jessica Grose [00:44:26]:
So
Andrew Xu [00:44:26]:
But maybe, they would take that and they would think that it's because you're unwilling to talk to people who disagree with you.
Jessica Grose [00:44:32]:
I know. But, I mean, I'm really open to it. I really do try to find I think it's really important to find points of connection with people who disagree with you vehemently if they are willing to disagree with you in a way that is respectful.
Andrew Xu [00:44:46]:
Yeah.
Jessica Grose [00:44:47]:
If you're gonna if if the conversation starts as an ad hominem attack, it's not gonna go anywhere good.
Andrew Xu [00:44:55]:
I think, yeah, I think it's very fascinating how like you say most doctors are not taking money from big pharma. Like, it feels like the American establishment, like the quote, unquote system. I think that the real the real truth is that they spent decades, getting rid of unfair malpractice and, getting rid of, stuff that would make them partisan or stuff that would cause them to, unfairly take bribes. And, they spend so many years, crafting a system where there aren't as many conflicts of interest, but it doesn't really matter anymore because, social media influencers can accuse you of being corrupt anyway.
Jessica Grose [00:45:30]:
Yeah. I mean, also, the depressing thing is, honestly, I think that the bad guys in this are health insurance companies. Right? Like, health insurance companies managed care has made the lives of doctors and nurses so much worse. The amount of paperwork, the amount of denials, all of this stuff. And then because the people who work for the insurance companies are distant, you don't actually interact with them. A lot of rage gets transferred to the individual doctors and medical professionals that you're dealing with because they're the face of it. Right? And they don't like anything.
Andrew Xu [00:46:03]:
Oh, you're shooting the messenger, basically.
Jessica Grose [00:46:05]:
Yeah. You're shooting the messenger of something that has made their lives way more unpleasant, and none of them like it. So, you know, again, it goes back to when you asked me what was my one thing that I think that we can improve, universal health care. Will it be perfect? Absolutely not. There are huge problems. You know, it's not you know, people even people in countries that have universal health care have gripes with it. Nothing's a panacea, but I just think that people going bankrupt because of medical debt is shouldn't happen in a developed country. Or, I mean, it shouldn't happen anywhere, but it should it certainly shouldn't happen in a country as wealthy as ours.
Andrew Xu [00:46:40]:
There was there was something that you said, when you made the appearance on the opinions podcast that I'm still mulling over. You said, quote, I think medicine has become a victim of its own success. Yeah. Could you could you elaborate on this?
Jessica Grose [00:46:55]:
Yeah. So, you know, a hundred years ago, medicine had no standards. It was often like the cures were, you know, the we're saying pre vaccine, pre sanitation, pre you know, most of the information that we know today.
Andrew Xu [00:47:11]:
Like, pre the Spanish flu?
Jessica Grose [00:47:13]:
Yeah. We're, we're talking, eighteen nineties. Doctors were just as likely to kill you as you know? So doctors were scary. They didn't do a good job. You know, the profession really professionalized. We have learned just an incredible amount about the human body, how it works. We have vaccines. We have clean water.
Jessica Grose [00:47:34]:
We have, you know, sanitized operating theater. I mean, there's you know, in one of the books I read about, John Kellogg, who is this sort of pioneering health reformer, kind of a kook, but also had some really good, you know, prescient ideas, He there was a description of his father being operated on in, 1870 where it was like a surgeon took he had a huge gash in his foot, and a surgeon took a piece of dirty leather and, sewed it over the gash. And it's just like a miracle that this man did not die of blood poisoning and that his foot didn't have to be amputated. So, that was medicine a hundred fifty years ago. Right? But now medicine can do so much, just remarkable things, and life expectancy is quite long. And so anytime Yeah. There's a screw up, it's shocking to people. Right? Whereas before, it was, you know, just being alive.
Jessica Grose [00:48:36]:
So now I think that there's, you know, a desire for doctors sort of being magicians, and that's impossible.
Andrew Xu [00:48:47]:
Yeah.
Jessica Grose [00:48:48]:
They will you know, people have bad luck. So people who did everything right will, you know, get illnesses, and they you know, it's awful. It's awful. It's never it's never fun. It's never good news, but, you know, it's not the fault of the medical profession.
Andrew Xu [00:49:07]:
Yeah. I guess I have two points to make to that. So I guess the first point is like if we think back to like the 1890s when doctors often just killed you, I think that one like somewhat self evident but still kind of underrated point is that like part of the reason why health costs are so high is because, medicine, works. Like, medicine used to not be there there were a lot of ways in which medicine was not as expensive because it just, didn't work until it started working. So that's the first point. Yeah. I think the second point is that a lot of the time, at least in our present day, much more sequestered, like society. I think a lot of the time we expect institutions or the establishment or the quote, unquote system.
Andrew Xu [00:49:56]:
I think we expect them to do things that they are just, not even capable of doing in the first place. And I think that's part of the reason why people hate the system so much is that, they want the system to do things that is not even isn't it was not even designed to do in the first place.
Jessica Grose [00:50:10]:
Right. Right. Yeah. No. I think that's right.
Andrew Xu [00:50:14]:
Yeah. Okay. Just to bring it back, do you think that the decline in religion and the decline in sec the increase in secularization might have caused a lessening of moral formation within young people that has caused them to sort of expect, that type of cultural formation or that type of, those types of cultural expectations about what to do or what not to do from, institutions or, systems that are not even designed to be able to do that in the first place?
Jessica Grose [00:50:46]:
I don't know. That's so unsatisfying. Right?
Andrew Xu [00:50:51]:
Well, sometimes it's satisfying to, recognize that the answer is unsatisfying.
Jessica Grose [00:50:56]:
Yeah. I think it's impossible to know. Right? Like, it's I think people have always searched for meaning. I had a joke in that piece that I did about happiness last summer that it's man's search for meaning is the title of a search of a whole book. Right? Like and there was no conclusion to that book. I think young people especially will always be unsatisfied looking for who they are, looking for meaning in life, questioning challenging in a way that, you know, I don't think is bad. So I think, you know and I think there was a lot of pressure in previous generations to be observant. And when inside, people didn't really believe whatever they were parroting.
Jessica Grose [00:51:50]:
It just was you know, there was so much social pressure to go to church and to be, you know, claimed to be observant. So yeah. I mean, I don't know. I read a lot of history, like I said, and people did not I wouldn't say that reading accounts of of and these are successful, prominent wealthy people because who gets biographies written about them. Right? They don't seem any happier than we do today. They don't seem any more they don't seem less happy. But I don't know. I have a sort of long view of it.
Jessica Grose [00:52:29]:
I think that the shape of the problems changes with time. But I feel like people are people, and they're always gonna be people. And that's gonna be you know, they'll have challenges. So that's my unsatisfying response to that question.
Andrew Xu [00:52:44]:
I'm really loving how cheesy this conversation is. Okay. But you would agree that, society is much more individualistic now than it has been in recent memory. Like, would you agree with that?
Jessica Grose [00:52:55]:
Yes. Yes.
Andrew Xu [00:52:57]:
Yes. Alright. So, what what are your what what are your theories for it besides religion? What do you maybe, social media?
Jessica Grose [00:53:03]:
Social media, you know, I think the need for everybody to earn a living, and I don't wanna say it's like I don't wanna say capitalism because then it makes it sound like I'm a Marxist, which I'm not.
Andrew Xu [00:53:22]:
Yeah. But, society society was cap still just as if not more capitalist decades ago, and it wasn't as individualistic as it is now.
Jessica Grose [00:53:31]:
Yeah. I do think there is something about sort of well, you know, I don't know what again, it's I feel like people survey you know, they didn't have surveys a 50 ago to find about people's attitudes and, you know, all of this. So, I don't know. I think it's really hard to compare. And I also think it's really hard to compare things you know, oh, well, teenagers in 2025 say that they are more depressed than teachers teenagers did in 1990. And what you can't answer is even if the question's asked the same way. Depress the idea of depression is so much more culturally acceptable. What what is going on in the teenager's head in 2025 when they hear the word depression or anxiety and what went on in a 1990 teenager's head are totally different.
Jessica Grose [00:54:18]:
And so I don't know how you can account for that or or, or manage for the way that the way that we use words changes over time and to describe our feelings. So, again, I'm not trying to throw cold water on all of social science.
Andrew Xu [00:54:35]:
Yeah. You know what I mean?
Jessica Grose [00:54:37]:
These are things that I think about and questions that I have.
Andrew Xu [00:54:40]:
Yeah. But, obviously, the data, I do think that I would come to the conclusion that teenagers now are more depressed. But how how about this? I'll give a statement. Let me know if you agree with it. A lot of the country's divisions nowadays can be traced back to the decline in a consistent monoculture. Would you agree with that statement?
Jessica Grose [00:55:01]:
Yeah. I definitely agree with that.
Andrew Xu [00:55:02]:
Yeah. Alright. But, maybe maybe part of the problem is, we are so we're so invested in what we want and, what we what we can get from society that we don't realize that, a lot of social bonds in the past was recognizing who you were as an individual and what your duty was to the rest of the world.
Jessica Grose [00:55:24]:
Yes.
Andrew Xu [00:55:25]:
Yes. Okay. So, do you think do do you think that, a lot of maybe maybe one point I would make is that, increased liberalism or social liberalism or social progressivism, a lot of the time I agree with it. But I think the problem the problem happens when people try to progress society forward without realizing that they're only regret progressing a small part of society forward rather than, the whole the whole batch of apples that makes up, the entirety of American society. And as a result, it leads to, a, a sort of lag where if you're not if you're not bringing forward everyone, then it cause then that ends up exacerbating the country's divisions. Does that even make sense?
Jessica Grose [00:56:12]:
It totally makes sense. I would say that I locate the problem a little bit elsewhere, which is, you know, I definitely exacerbated by social media, but there was just, there's a lot of gotcha, a lack of sort of grace and trying to understand where people are coming from. And and I think the biggest problem and the thing that I just don't I just deeply disagree with is that intentions don't matter. I actually think intentions matter a lot, and we're never gonna get anywhere as humans if we don't sort of try to unpack people's intentions by about why they behave the way they do, about why they say that the things that they say. And so, you know, if the intention is to hurt your feelings, to own the libs, to do whatever, those are bad intentions. But if the intention was something else, I think it's worth talking about that and and, you know, working through differences. Right? So I think part of it is, when we are talking over the Internet to people that we don't know in real life, it is very easy to assume bad faith. And there's it's really e it's like it's it's funny this idea that, you know, AI can be unbiased because people read bias into all sorts of speech and language that wasn't intended by the original person.
Jessica Grose [00:57:44]:
Right? So I think about this all the time where it's I'll see a headline on our website, not even above my own stories, that to me seems totally anodyne, seems like the most straightforward basic description of what the article is about. And then I'll go on Blue Sky or threads, Twitter, whatever, and people are freaking out about the way that this article has been framed, and they see it, you know, this way, that way, or the other way. Right? So interpretation is everything. And I think when we I don't think humans were built to talk to so many strangers with no context. I guess I'll say that. I think and I guess you could say, oh, that's, social media division. But if you wanted to ask me what the number one biggest driver of polarization and, you know, nastiness in the way we think about each other, I think it's that. We're just not built for this.
Jessica Grose [00:58:43]:
We're not built to have all this context free information from all over the place. Right?
Andrew Xu [00:58:49]:
I guess this is another, like really cringey point, but maybe part of the reason why it's hard for us to connect with each other and it's a lot easier for us to talk past each other is because, America has become there's significantly less of a monoculture. There's significantly less of, like so, let's say, if you were to go back several decades ago, it would it it if you wanted to talk to someone about, say, Star Trek, everyone would talk about, the newest episode of The Next Generation that they watched because of how popular it was and, how people of all ages and all, genders and all, all different demographics and all, all across the income ladder, they would all be tuned into that the exact same show and, like that the fact that there are so many aspects of the culture that, everyone consumed meant that, you had some, starting point or some starting baseline to, engage with those people. Where nowadays, everyone, like everyone, even when they use the same social media platforms, they're still, plugged into completely different parts of the culture. And when when they watch the shows, they watch completely different shows that often have completely different messaging to them. And I think that, yeah, I guess the the I guess the somewhat, cheesy or maybe self evident point is that part of the reason why it's harder for us to talk to each other is that, once again, the decline in the consistent monoculture is making us harder for us to have the same starting premises in the first place.
Jessica Grose [01:00:13]:
Yeah. I mean, I always go back and forth because it's obviously, culture matters about and changing norms and, you know, it has some impact, but it's I don't know how much I mean, it's it's it's one factor. Right? It's one factor among many factors, and, it's so hard to know what the what the passageway is and how deeply people internalize the things that they're watching. But, you know, it's interesting. I feel like sports is kind of the last monoculture.
Andrew Xu [01:00:49]:
Yeah. And but, the the less of a monoculture there is, the more uncertainty there is around the world and the more uncertainty around there is around the world, the easier it is for, authoritarians or demagogues to sort of capitalize on it.
Jessica Grose [01:01:03]:
That sounds right to me.
Andrew Xu [01:01:06]:
Yeah. Were you were you a church grower growing were you a church goer growing up, if you don't mind me asking?
Jessica Grose [01:01:14]:
Oh, not at all. So, I'm a % Jewish. We went to temple, but in a kind of perfunctory way. Like, I was bat mitzvah, but I think my parents had us go kind of out of obligation to their parents and, a feeling of just you know, there's such a sense of when you're Jewish that you're this, persecuted minority and that there is value in showing up and continuing to practice this religion in the face of, you know, it not being allowed and being snuffed out, in so many different places. You know, my sister-in-law is Russian. She came here when she was eight, and, you know, they, you know, basically weren't allowed to practice Judaism. So I think it's sort of it's like this other thing. You know?
Andrew Xu [01:02:20]:
Like a side thing?
Jessica Grose [01:02:22]:
It it's it's because it's also an ethnicity and because we've just been you know, we have this history and and it it it becomes something beyond the which obviously all religions are something beyond just the, you know, church attendance, but, I think for Jews, it's it's it's so complicated. So many books have been written about how complicated it is. I don't know I'm gonna be able to, summarize my feelings.
Andrew Xu [01:02:49]:
Like even if even if you did try to summarize it, the fact that you are, summarizing it means that it's always easy for someone to just take your lines out of context.
Jessica Grose [01:02:58]:
Yeah. Exactly. I feel I'll tell you this. I went to Temple once a week until I was, 14, and, I feel very, you know, self definition Jewish. It's important to me. So it hopefully, that answers the question.
Andrew Xu [01:03:13]:
Yeah. It's important to you. Was was it important for your sense of, moral formation?
Jessica Grose [01:03:17]:
Yes. Absolutely.
Andrew Xu [01:03:19]:
Yeah. Do you think that your own, moral code would have been different if you didn't go to temple regularly?
Jessica Grose [01:03:26]:
So hard to say because I found the experience to be totally unsatisfying. And I don't it's I have zero recollection of anything that was said during temple. I just remember being bored. So, it's really hard to say, but maybe it did. It's like you know, I certainly can't can honestly say there were no revelations experienced, while I was sitting in those hard wooden pews. I remember being uncomfortable and bored.
Andrew Xu [01:03:57]:
Yeah. And I think a lot of people who, attend religious services can remember feeling uncomfortable and bored. Yeah. Alright. I'm gonna completely hard pivot onto something that we talked about earlier. So you off handedly mentioned when you were talking about students who were recovering from, post pandemic learning loss that there was an increase in, bad behavior and, students acting out. Yeah. Could could you talk about that completely unrelated topic? Yeah.
Jessica Grose [01:04:26]:
So, you know, again, this is anecdotal. I don't know that anyone keeps statistics on this kind of thing. I mean, I guess you could keep statistics on, suspensions and whatever, but it's, more corrosive than that and sort of day to day just classroom management. You know? When I talked to teachers, they said I mean, especially 2022 and '23, it's gotten a little bit better. But at that point, they found kids to be six to eighteen months socially behind where kids in previous, you know, pre pandemic classes had been. And, again, who's caught up? Who hasn't caught up? It's kind of always turns into the haves and the have nots.
Andrew Xu [01:05:03]:
Yeah. That that does make me wonder, you keep emphasizing the idea that there are haves and have nots. And, there are people that our society is providing for and people that our society isn't providing for. So, obviously, you write a newsletter where you're very keen on, what your audience thinks about you and what your you're you have your audience, write you letters and stuff. Do you ever wonder there might be, a selection effect with regards to the people who do read your newsletter?
Jessica Grose [01:05:31]:
100%. I said that in any time I quote my readers or do a poll, I say New York Times readers are not remotely representative of the average American. They are wealthier. They are better educated. They are not representative in any way, shape, or form.
Andrew Xu [01:05:46]:
Yeah. Maybe, yeah, maybe maybe in the future, the sort of make America healthy again, like RFK followers, maybe they're more representative of…
Jessica Grose [01:05:56]:
No. They're not. They actually tend to be better educated and wealthier as well.
Andrew Xu [01:06:01]:
Oh, okay. No. No. Wait. Wait. Look. This is interesting. Talk about this a little bit.
Jessica Grose [01:06:04]:
Well, that's who's politically active, period. Like, there's a huge, socioeconomic gap in political activity. I mean, only 40% of eligible voters vote in the first place. And the people who are more disengaged tend to be disengaged, not a % of the time, but, more disengaged from kind of everything. Right? And I also think, you know, yes, I talk to my readers and I do sort of polls or whatever, but also, you know, I talk tons of of teachers who teach in all different kinds of environments. So I would say that that kind of reporting is is probably a lot more representative than, you know, the religion stuff where where I'm, you know, really just talking to a a cross section of readers. But, you know, there are readers of the New York Times and subscriber of the New York Times who who haven't gone to college. Like, I'm just talking about the average time subscriber.
Jessica Grose [01:06:58]:
But, yeah, I think, you know, anyone who has the time and energy to be super politically active tends to be wealthier.
Andrew Xu [01:07:08]:
Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, this is interesting. You you mentioned that, you think that the teachers who talk to you are a little bit more representative. So our our very I guess, in our very last way into education discussion, what are the teachers telling you?
Jessica Grose [01:07:24]:
Again, it's you know, it is all over the place, the really different experiences based in different areas. I mean, the biggest problems that I hear about lately are cheating. ChatGPT has been tough on that. And, again, it's not all kids. It's, 10% who just don't wanna do the work, and now it's just much easier for them to get the grade and not do the work. You know, again, like I said, absenteeism is a really big problem. You know, the kids reading comprehension, not great. They really are worried about that.
Jessica Grose [01:07:59]:
They love the kids. I mean, I got a letter from a reader who was, just last week, who was describing all sort of different issues that she's encountering now in the high school that she teaches in, which is, you know, a lower socioeconomic, population. And she was the kids are all great. They're really great kids, and I like them a lot. You know? So that kind of thing gives me hope because the sort of essential, you know, goodness of the kids has not changed. They're struggling in various ways, and it's not I don't wanna make it sound like I expected them to not children or any of us. I mean, I think as a society, we're all still digging out from that very upset there was a pandemic, man. Like, it would be bizarre if there were not lasting effects to so many people getting sick and dying.
Jessica Grose [01:08:49]:
That was real. And I feel like in when we talk about the pandemic, we don't even talk about that anymore.
Andrew Xu [01:08:56]:
Like, everyone wants to leave it behind. Like you you talk too much about how it's impossible to know how lasting the impact of school closures are. I guess in in some way, it is it is possible to know because, to the extent that, school closures, radicalized members of Gen z into becoming more right wing, then maybe they would they're the reason why Trump won the election. And, that's that's like an the pretty immediate effect, I would say.
Jessica Grose [01:09:20]:
Yeah. But you don't know. Again, you know, just to complicate that, yes, maybe that did move the needle, but also a lot of young people just were inflation is really bad. And that's why I voted for a Republican. And because we I wanted to change. And so and the other thing, which, you know, is another wrinkle here, this part of Gen z that just became, you know, eighteen to twenty four was raised by Gen x. Gen x is much more Republican than millennials. So it would actually track that their kids would be a little bit more conservative.
Jessica Grose [01:09:56]:
Boomers raised millennials. Millennials are now raising younger Gen z and Gen alpha. So it'll be really interesting to see if it swings back. Right? Because is it just that a more conservative generation you know, the silents were more conservative than the boomers. So the silents raised Gen x. Are you seeing the, like I think I this is, you know, the I've seen the polling based on all of this for sure. So it's a it is a dynamic, but it's you know, the election was quite close. So any number of of these things could have pushed it in a in a direction.
Jessica Grose [01:10:30]:
It is absolutely true that young men, not just white men, men of color, you know, were more likely to vote Republican in this election for sure. That is a cultural thing. It did happen. I don't wanna diminish the fact that it happened. But in terms of the cause and effect, I do think it is sort of multifactorial in that way.
Andrew Xu [01:10:47]:
Yeah. Like, it's an it's entirely there are so many things that, may might have moved the needle. Like our we did talk about, Kamala Harris and whether she was willing to go on Joe Rogan. Like, there are obviously there are a bunch of, there are a bunch of, nonpolitical but sort of right coded podcasts by, more bro y podcast hosts. Like, where if if Kamala Harris just, went on those podcasts, over and over again, for the last few weeks, she's just, every single day, she just went on one of them. Maybe she would have won the presidency.
Jessica Grose [01:11:17]:
I don't think so. I really don't think so. There was so much else against her. You know? Like, I voted for her happily, but she had a lot of baggage, and the whole thing with Biden was horrible. Like, you know, I think the only way a Democrat would have had a fighting chance, any Democrat, in the inflationary environment that we were in last November is if we had had a proper primary in starting in 2022. If Biden had said in 2022, I'm not running again, which he should have.
Andrew Xu [01:11:44]:
Yeah. If if he said that, I would have put him in, the top 10 presidents of all time.
Jessica Grose [01:11:48]:
Yes. But he didn't say that much to every many, many people's chagrin, including mine. So I still think they probably would have lost, but that's the only way that they would have had even a fighting chance. And, again, you know, it's a cliche, but cliches can be true for a reason. It is the economy, stupid. And so, you know, you would have had to have a Democrat who could have meaningfully broken from Biden, and we did not have that. So it's what it is. And you're now living through it.
Andrew Xu [01:12:17]:
Yeah. And I'd I guess the one thing that I look forward to in the coming years as we live through this is that I get to have more really cheesy conversations with you.
Jessica Grose [01:12:26]:
I really appreciate it. I always like our chats, and I love to be I mean, you know, I always say, I'm a sarcastic realist. Like, I or an optimistic cynic. Like, I always you know, I can be such a skeptic, but in my heart of hearts, I'm, you know, gooey. So I'm always like I always like an opportunity to show my gooey side.
Andrew Xu [01:12:53]:
Yeah. Alright. Final question. So, there are so many, questions and answers where, the ultimate conclusion was just it's hard to say or, we don't know. So, to I guess my just, something that you might say to the people listening. Do you have any advice for dealing with just how uncertain a lot of the future is?
Jessica Grose [01:13:12]:
Yeah. One day at a time. It is you can't there's so many things in life, not just politics, that are totally beyond our control. And what has made me happiest in the past year or you know, I would say, really, I tried to focus on this since we got out of those sort of worst parts of the pandemic was seeing my friends, seeing my family members, making time for my children, having dinner with them every night, basic stuff of life, the basic stuff of life. And they can't take that away from you. They can't take any of that away from you. They cannot take the joy that I also tell you the best moment of my day. So my older daughter comes home from school by herself.
Jessica Grose [01:14:00]:
She's older. My little one, I still pick up from school. The look on her face when we see each other is warms my heart to such an extent that I can't describe any other feeling, feeling as good as that.
Andrew Xu [01:14:19]:
It is It's like the best feeling in the world.
Jessica Grose [01:14:21]:
It is literally the best feeling in the world. I see her sweet face. I'm so happy to see her. She's happy to see me. We make eye contact. And that feeling, I get to have that feeling every day. I just I'm so grateful for it. And again, gooey.
Jessica Grose [01:14:37]:
So gooey, but it is true.
Andrew Xu [01:14:40]:
Yeah. I guess, yeah, I guess, I'm, moving forward one day at a time, I'm gonna try two things. So what obviously, the first thing is something you touched on is trying to invest more in personal relationships because at the end of the day, that is what life is about after all. Yeah. Yeah. And then the second thing is I mentioned this at the start, I'm gonna try time boxing my news consumption. So, I have a specific, one hour of one hour of every day out of the calendar where, I'm only gonna consume news at that part of the day. And then if I feel depressed after reading the news, then maybe I can, comfort myself by, watching Pokemon or something.
Jessica Grose [01:15:13]:
Yeah. I love that.
Andrew Xu [01:15:14]:
Yeah. Jessica Grose, thank you so much for taking the time to come back onto this podcast. I had a blast.
Jessica Grose [01:15:20]:
My pleasure. Anytime.
Andrew Xu [01:15:26]:
Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, make sure to follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or anywhere else that you get your podcasts from. Until next time. Goodbye.
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